Friday, December 08, 2006

A thought....

If God wanted everyone to follow one religion, don't you think he would have been able to accomplish that?
Man evolves, not just on his own personal journey called life, man collectively evolves. Over the life time of humanity the human being has evolved, from cave man to hunter to trader to traveler to invader of countries and founder of civilisations. We begin from where the ones before us ended, ok, maybe not exactly where they ended, maybe we like to duplicate some work to make sure they got it right, but no one can argue that man as a being was one thing 3000 years ago, and an absolute different thing now, gradually and surely changing over the years.
Can we assume that this change is to the better? I can safely say i think it is to the more advanced, the more knowledgeable, be that better or not is up to you, but it is definitely to the direction of knowing more and understanding better. It is in the direction of discovering more truth about our world.
One can argue that the world is more fierce now, more violent, more racist, more promiscuous. I beg you to take a look at our history as human being and contemplate. Touch lightly on the roman empire and its use of torture as entertainment to the masses, the Greek's sexual relationships between siblings and parents, the massacres of groups of women guilty of witch craft, the enslavement and exporting of humans to serve the civilized world. Contemplate, is it really getting worse? Or are we just here, now, experiencing this and thinking it is worse?
In my opinion, it isn't getting worse, it is in our horror movie of history, getting better, at least we are all aware of the value of the human life and any of us that are honest with themselves are pained at it's unjust loss.
Now lets take a look at the world today, economically, politically, education wise, lets take a close honest look at continents and countries and standards of living. Can you not see how countries that rigidly rule in alignment with religion are the worst off? Are the least educated? Are the most angry? Are the most violent? Are the poorest and worst off? Are constantly in a state of rage against abuse? And we all know that half the responsibility of being abused lies on the abused, if not more. But then again these countries would not know that, they have not learnt to take responsibility for their status, they have not been taught how to choose.
Whats the point?
The point is, that maybe, just maybe, religion as it was taught all those years ago has served it's purpose and is not meant for today. Maybe at that point in time religion was God's way of instilling a basic sense of right and wrong in the immature human being at that time, like teaching a toddler right from wrong through punishment and reward. Maybe over the time people have learnt how to be like that without being confined by religion, maybe we have reached the point where people can find God on their own.
I mean after all, according to one of these books, the end is near, maybe towards the end people have found freedom and found a way to choose their God, instead of adjusting to Him. Maybe the journey of the human being through time has been a success, would God make it any other way really? would God fail?
Again, if God wanted us all to hymn the same things, do you not think he would be able to? Maybe, just maybe our differences are God's way of challenging us, to see whether we will break free from our arrogance and presumptuousness, our rigidity and judgments, our ignorance and our anger. Maybe it's God's way of trying to tell us that no matter, all his children will go home to him, eventually.
Maybe, it's just a thought.

Note: I never write about religeon and such, but this post by Carmen moved me enough to say something about it.

12 comments:

Insomniac said...

well, i do agree that religion should be separate from state.. religion is private.. and afer all one's true religion is in their heart.. sadly enough, a lot of people seem to start war and say it's for religion although when u look deep down, u'll see it's not!

well said ya N.. btw, tried to check carmen's post throught ur link.. didn't work

Will E. said...

Sorry N, can't agree with one part of this thought, I don't believe there's an expiration date on what God tells people. It either works or doesn't.

You can't have it both ways, you either believe that what you have is the way towards God or not, there's no expiration date..

You're saying (or at least that's what it sounds like to me):
"I belive that God's way of bringing us to him was right back then but now it's not valid anymore.."

It's too conditional, just a conscience at ease thought to reconcile between all worlds.. and all feelings. It's like people needed God back then but we don't need Him anymore today.. So at what point in time did that happen?

You see God is constant, doesn't make sense if He's not, and if a way of reaching him has worked in the past, it's bound to work again.. It's either that the methods have never worked or always will work.. other than that it just means that God changes. I accept that most religions don't work, and I accept that some religions work, but I don't accept that validity period.. I'd rather you said that religion never works.


Religion is:A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

I agree that religion has defamed God in people's eyes, but that's the institutionalization part .. a personal system to religion is one that may work, but you know something.. religion has never worked as an institution, it only works when it's personal... so I don't think there's any change, except that now the institutionalized versions of religion are driving more people towards athiesm.

I know it's just a thought.. but I personally think it's too far fetched ..

N said...

"You can't have it both ways, you either believe that what you have is the way towards God or not, there's no expiration date.."

i believe there are many ways to God, not just one, that's the point. there is no expiring there is evlovling over time, that's what i meant.

"You're saying (or at least that's what it sounds like to me):
"I belive that God's way of bringing us to him was right back then but now it's not valid anymore..""

no, i'm saying that was God's way of putting us on the path (i refer to us as the human race) and it worked, but is it necessarily his way to let us reach the destination?

"just a conscience at ease thought to reconcile between all worlds.. and all feelings."

thats exactly what it is, because i don't think any one holder of faith should be condemned to blasphemy regardless to who he is.

"it's like people needed God back then but we don't need Him anymore today.. So at what point in time did that happen?"

not once did i say in this point, or anywhere else for that matter, that we don't need God. not once.

God is constant, agreed, religeon is the way that works and always will? i disagree. religeon is not God, i think your theory of one way of reaching God working always and forever irrelevant to time, space and environment is too far fetched. its too theoretical, and even in the lab, to yield the same results we need to keep the conditions constant...

Having said all that, i have nothing against religeon. It is often one's way of communicating to God, that is very true. What i am against is the emphasis on ones choice of religeon that seems to define one more than anything and gives every single holder of one faith the idea that he'she can condemn others of different faiths. it is vety unnatural to me.

thanks for taking it to bits :) you never let me down that way.

Will E. said...

Okay.. Like I said there's one point that we disagree on.. I never said that religion is the way that worked and always will.. I'm saying that it either always worked or never did.

My theory is that saying that one way works at some point in time and fails at other times means that God changes. If my theory that God is unchanging is too theoretical then so be it..

Also, I don't think that holders of a faith should be condemned period.

If people find new ways of finding God I don't object but... my sole objection to all that's been said is that ways of old worked once but don't work anymore.. whether it be religion or any other.. The general principle is what I object against.. because I always need to ask what has changed about God?

I know you might say humans have changed and evolved, but that just means they're closer to the means of finding God.. Forgive me if I restate a more accurate version of what you say: the ways of old can still work but people have found new ways to reach God as well.. that I can accept.. but ways of old don't work anymore.. just doesn't quite make it..

And yes .. one more thing.. we're all God's children and we will reach eventually?? I disagree because this counters your own argument.. it just means that all ways WILL lead to God whether they are religion .. old ways, new ways, right ways or wrong ways.. :) (At least in my own head)

Just to make it clear finally, I don't believe there's just one way to reach God. Institutionalized religion was never one, it's always personal religion.

Thanks for your patience and open heart :)

N said...

"My theory is that saying that one way works at some point in time and fails at other times means that God changes. If my theory that God is unchanging is too theoretical then so be it.."

i just repeated that God is constant! a7lef? :) what i am trying to say is that maybe humans have "grown up" and what was the first step on a road of awareness, can now be practices out of choice, the way doesnt stop working, it was a necessary step in teaching at that time and level of awareness. how to recognize the ways of God, the same unchanging God. and now you may choose the rituals and prcatice that you find comforting, as at the end God is not about his religion(s).

"Forgive me if I restate a more accurate version of what you say: the ways of old can still work but people have found new ways to reach God as well.. that I can accept.. but ways of old don't work anymore.. just doesn't quite make it.."

we're getting somewhere.. that is what i'm saying. ways of old of course work, provided in their practive you dont condemn others who choose new ways, and new ways can also work. i meant for some people, religeon is not the way to God.

"And yes .. one more thing.. we're all God's children and we will reach eventually?? I disagree because this counters your own argument.. it just means that all ways WILL lead to God whether they are religion .. old ways, new ways, right ways or wrong ways.. :) (At least in my own head)"

:) definately not wrong ways, i mean good ways, that should be obvious. people on bad paths aren't really searching for God, the whole eventually thing is a whole different post.. maybe one day :)

now let me finaly agree that religeon can only be personalized to work, as it is not polluted by power and agendas. we dont really disagree that much.

oh, and you're welcome :)

Haroun El Poussah said...

Of course there are expiration dates on what God says. Will someone really argue that stuff that was valid 2000 year ago is still valid today?

Will E. said...

N: "definately not wrong ways, i mean good ways"

Hmm.. and good is different for everyone.. the only person who can judge good, if independent of religion is either God or the person himself.. and in all cases you can't guarantee that both ideas about good are the same.. so basically there is no such thing as wrong way and good way.

God is usually never about religion, religion is usually about God.. that's true, but some religions aren't about God, not the real God anyway.

You say man has grown.. I disagree.. the amount of bigots, racists, mysogynists, hypocrites and liars prove that man hasn't grown. The difference is that some educated people found ways to run this world in a way that makes it seem grown and civilized. Internally men are the same.. Countries are now civilized, but it doesn't mean that people are..

haroun: My whole point is that if it isn't valid today, it certainly never was. I can certainly argue that it was never valid back then, and I can argue that it's valid now.. but it does depend on what was being said right? After all not all religions say the same thing.. Now whether you choose to believe that it always is or never was is up to you. I can't stop you thinking that it was valid for a time, but I would think it's a tailor made thought to put certain internal battles within people at ease.

N said...

Will: there is no such thing as in good way and wrong way???!!! i understand relativity, but really, we can't take it to that extreme. there is good and there is bad and we use our best judgment at the time to make a choice or we slack off and take the easy way out.. life isn't simple, but it's not so very vague as well..

you seem to be a bit on the human being, i like to give credit to the growing number of people who are trying to be aware.

and you seem to be very insistent that this thought is just to put internal battles at ease... does that mean that sticking to religeon leaves us with internal battles that can't be put at ease? does that mean that's the way it's supposed to be? what is so wrong about finding an explanation that puts one at ease and makes sense to one? how is that in abstract anti-God?

Will E. said...

Let me use some of your logic.. Good and bad are not dictated by anyone, everyone finds it in themselves.. now sometimes what's good for me is bad for people. If everything is internal and each one has his own version of it then even the way to right and wrong is not guided by anything but a person himself.

Okay your last few questions are confusing: "what is so wrong about finding an explanation that puts one at ease and makes sense to one?"

Does this mean that you're trying to put yourself at ease indeed? Well if so there's nothing wrong with it.. and that in itself is not anti-God. One tries his best. But the real problem is that to me it compromises logic for the sake of comfort.. sort of the easy way out.. what's wrong with saying religions never worked? I don't understand the problem.

You said growning number who are 'trying' to be aware.. well, that just proves that humans do not have enough awareness and are still trying.. you never said succeeded.. but I still say that humans are the same, even in the past there were growing numbers trying to be aware, so I don't think you've proved that humans have grown.. only states.

And as for sticking to religion.. I don't think i've stated that religion is the right way or wrong way.. What I have a problem with is tailoring something which (I feel) compromises logic (being a man of logic and code).

So in conclusion, my question as stated earlier, why not just say religion never worked and only faith ever does?? Why the necessity to acknowledge that religions worked in the past and that God approved them back then and not anymore??

N said...

you know this could go on forever? :)
because i don't think the way you do i suppose.. i think that religion was necessary at a time, and now not so necessary, if you look i back i don't say not work anymore, i say not necessarily the only way anymore.
maybe we should go back to emailing...

still breathing said...

just passing by to say hi..

Dubai Guy said...

Mankind were one community and Allah sent Prophets with glad tidings and warnings, and with them He sent the Scripture in truth to judge between people in matters wherein they differed. And only those to whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it after clear proofs had come unto them through hatred, one to another. Then Allah by His Leave guided those who believed to the truth of that wherein they differed. And Allah guides whom He wills to a Straight Path. (Quran 2:213)

Mankind were but one community (i.e. on one religion - Islamic Monotheism), then they differed (later), and had not it been for a Word that went forth before from your Lord, it would have been settled between them regarding what they differed. (10:19)

And if your Lord had so willed, He could surely have made humankind one community (following one religion only, Islam), but they will not cease to disagree (11:118)

Yes man was maybe different 3,000 years ago (in height, age, knowledge, skills, etc) but one thing has not changed & will never change. That thing is called "death" & that it can surprise anyone at any time. Are we prepared for it?

Now if we have to die, then why are we in this world? This is the duty of every one of us to find out the purpose of our life.

"Has there not been over man a period of time, when he was nothing to be mentioned?" (76:1)

"And they say: "There is nothing but our life of this world, we die and we live and nothing destroys us except Ad-Dahr (the time). And they have no knowledge of it, they only conjecture. (45:24)

May Allah guide all of us to His right path & I am sorry if any one felt offended.